Does anyone speak JR programming?

[Ranger]

Hi Guy's
You all knew this one was coming!!
It's time I learned to speak JR programming,Starting with the JR9x v2 (Now I'm really broke) They have 7 point throttle and pitch curves. where do I start? I have never set up a radio before, with the exception of a 2 channel boat set up. So far I have the throttle, rudder, pitch all working.
Bearing in mind, I want to keep this heli "tamed" as you all know this one is scale. I would like to have power to spare, and have no sudden movement.

As this thread could get a little involved, I will ask you all to bare in mind that I have just been diagnosed with Dementia,(for real) and may confuse myself and have to ask things again, or have you explain them a little differently!
If this presents itself to be problem, please PM myself or Mrs Ranger and I'll stop.
:(
Regards, Glen

[The Broker]

Hi Ranger :D
We are here to help so nothing you post could be a problem, HeliTown Forum is for everyone to feel at home in so please post whatever questions you have and do not think anymore about it.
We all want to see that beautiful bird fly.
Sue

[swatson144]

Hey Ranger,

I don't speak JR but converting Fut to JR can't be that hard if we use long terms to describe the intent. Like Fut uses "end point" JR may call it "limits" It's just the max servo travel in plain speak.

The starting point is invariably selecting the correct swash layout then getting a good mechanical setup in IU. Yes IU even if you don't intend to use IU (Idle Up) in your scale flying.

Make sure the motor can't come to life by unplugging etc. I assume this is electric? Is it eCCPM, or mechanical mix? You using an RX pack. heck it'd be good if you just ran down the configuration you intend to fly.

You'll put the TX in IU1 and set the pitch curve to linear. 0%, 25%, 50% 75%, 100%. (I'd assume me being a 5 pointer). Then you get to play with the linkages and get 0 pitch at mid stick, full plus and minus pitch at the extremes, all while keeping the swash level. You'll want to do as much as possible with the arm, ball position, etc to give you the best resolution. It's OK to over shoot a little like like specs say -10, to +10 If you wind up with -11 and +12 it can be fixed in what Futaba calls "swash AFR" which is the limits of the 3 servos working together eccpm, or if it is mechanical you'll just use the pitch servo limits.

That should keep you busy for a few mins. :lol:

Steve

Steve

[Ranger]

Hi sue,
Thanks, and that beautiful bird, as you put it, has been stripped down to a horrible looking stick insect, and no longer wants to be seen in public! (pics coming soon)
Glen :D

Hi Steve,
In case you've forgotten, the one we're talking about is the raptor 50v2 longranger in my Avatar! photo's in scale thread..
It has been set up as per instruction manual for beginner, not 3D. This one will never fly 3D, but I will set up what ever you tell me :D All of the linkage rods have been digitally measured.
Swash layout is set to 1 servo, normal. I also found out that if I set a five point curve, the JR sets the other two, but leaves them turned off until you turn them on. Pitch has been set to -2,+10.
After we get this one airborne, we can start on the Rexy :D

[swatson144]

Yes I had forgotten.

I know it will never 3d but setting it up like it will puts it on an equal playing field for later. It gets very confusing when 0 pitch is at 40% in the IU pitch curve. I'm having a hard time trying to explain it so we can jump forward to where you might be fully setup for scale flying.

Let's assume the max desired head speed is geared for 100%, and you aren't running Gov on throttle, (running gov is easier if your equipment does it well). Lets also assume that you have set your mechanical pitch (1 servo) to do the full range of pitch in IU.

This doesn't mean you have to use <normal> <IU1> <IU2> etc as a 3D pilot would. Once the IU is set for a good mechanical setup you KNOW that 0= -10 50%=0 and 100% = +10 pitch. So you set normal to pitch curve 40%, 45% 50% 75% 100% (it's easier for me now that I know the TX will interpolate the 5 pt curve) or what ever you prefer and a throttle curve to get you safely to the desired head speed. You'd fly in <IU1> which would probably be very much like if not exactly like <norm> IU2 (or IU3) would be full blown 3d setting. You may have no intention of ever flipping or inverted hovering but I have never seen anyone succesfully auto rotate in <norm>

You have a full blown heli and a full blown TX if you flame out even if the rotors stop in an auto that's better than just watching it happen IMO mainly because the rotor will stop much closer to the ground.

Steve

[swatson144]

but I will set up what ever you tell me

Heavens no! I'm as screwed up as a duck on ether. I only give input/my opinion! I don't have a mentor and have learned mostly by my mistakes. Even a guy with as obvious a talent for making mistakes as I, probably has not yet discovered all the mistakes I have made. Someone says "that's insane you are stupid" and explains why I'll thank them, apologize to you, and change my settings.

Steve

[Ranger]

Hi Steve,
If it would make it any simpler, maybe I could send you a copy of the 9x heli-section of the manual.
I am happy to set up anything you suggest. Now I just have to remember how to get it back to -10. If you need the manual, you can pm me with somewhere to send it. you may need Acrobat reader..
Glen

[Ranger]

Steve,
I am happy to set up anything you suggest.


Sorry, I repeated my self there, I will make use of my own common sense and take full responsibility for what ever takes place on my Heli.
Glen

[swatson144]

No reason to be sorry, that was more for other people to feel free to correct me the "electric goomer" if I screwed up the slimer side (well errr or anything else) :lol: . I'm enjoying this as I might even get a slimer myself someday. Then I could get a mentor but I'd have to give him/her a foam bat to whack me with when I got contrary.

Scale flying done well is very difficult. It looks easy done well, but folks who fly know it's very hard to fly a full pattern.

Steve

[swatson144]

Another point of interest before you get too far along is choosing your switch locations and positions.

You'll want them all in one direction in normal so you can check them easily. I have mine to all be pushed away in normal. All toward you would be just as good.

I like my flight controls IU etc on the left top (with TX standing on base ant up) which is easier for me to get with the left index finger while still handling the cyclic. The left hand is certainly less busy than the right in flight.

My throttle hold (throttle cut for you) is on the right where my fingers don't venture during flight. On my 9chp the only other switch up there is the trainer switch and I seriously doubt I'll ever use it. Idea being no chance of hitting the trainer switch while going IU or TH by accident. When I'm done flying the switch is easy to get to.

YMMV but it'd be a good idea to have it all setup and make sense for you.

Steve

[Ranger]

Steve,
I've prety much got the switches sorted, I have throttle cut top right back switch, and throttle hold programmed into the stick controls, also I'm using mode 1 (for Ausies)
Glen

[Ranger]

OK, we have a starting point.
normal, throttle and pitch both set to 0,16.5, 33,50,66.5,83.5,100
throttle hold set to 15% left rear switch, throttle cut, right rear switch

St-1 100-50-100 v-curve. This is a starting point only (don't shoot me) :D
Glen.

[swatson144]

You won't want that much negative in your normal pitch curve, only a couple degrees.

Steve

[Ranger]

Hi Steve,
I think I'm starting to get it, how does this sound?
Throttle 0%= -2deg pitch, 50%=5.5deg(hover) pitch, 100%= 10deg pitch.

[swatson144]

You posted while I was posting 0% = -10 degrees. Give me a couple mins pls and I'll edit this so you can see the method to what probably appears as madness.

Assuming your mechanical setup is good at -10 0 +10 degrees. A good place to start on pitch curve would be 45%, 46%, 47%, 50%, 66%, 83%, 100% (45%, 47% 50% 75% 100% for us 5 pointers) this will give you only a couple degrees negative in normal. Your throttle curve could be linear or a little steeper depending on what you/your motor like. idle%, 50%, 100% or idle%, 70%, 100% etc. More or less depending on if you want a low HS at hover but thats what the hover trims are for :D .

That allows a little downwards force while spooling up, and gets your motor to speed before it sees any real load.

Are you going to use a governor?

Probably my setup would be norm IU1 and IU2 on a 3 position switch. Normal at one extreme, IU1 at the middle, with the same pich curve as normal but the TC being at like 50-100% (the middle % and above should match normal) across the board to keep the motor at a happy RPM and keep it from flying like a fixed pitch with the HS dropping. I'd spool up in normal and flip to IU1 at 50% throttle while still on the ground and fly. For landing just switch back to normal. IU2 would be the full pitch range for auto and other emergencies.

Steve

Steve

[Ranger]

I'll program it in and see what it looks like
Talk to you later, it's 3.50 am here, I'm going to bed now!

[swatson144]

I finished editing the last post on page 1, so pls have a look when you come back. Maybe it'll make sense.

Steve

[Ranger]

Steve,
I know I'm a little slow on the up take, but I think I'm starting to get there. Just a couple of questions to clarify: the pitch curve 45%, 46%, 47%, 50%, 66%, 83%, 100%,Is this programmed into norm or idle up 1 and then, what do put in the other one? as they seem to be independently programmed

Don't understand this bit! " Your throttle curve could be linear or a little steeper depending on what you/your motor like. idle%, 50%, 100% or idle%, 70%, 100% etc. More or less depending on if you want a low HS at hover but thats what the hover trims are for"

I don't think I will be using governor just yet.

I understand this :"Probably my setup would be norm IU1 and IU2 on a 3 position switch. Normal at one extreme, IU1 at the middle, with the same pitch curve as normal"

I don't get this one: "but the TC being at like 50-100% (the middle % and above should match normal)"

I understand this part: "across the board to keep the motor at a happy RPM and keep it from flying like a fixed pitch with the HS dropping. I'd spool up in normal and flip to IU1 at 50% throttle while still on the ground and fly. For landing just switch back to normal. IU2 would be the full pitch range for auto and other emergencies."

I don't mean to make you work so hard at your explanations, but you clearly understand way more than I do. This is my first ever programmable TX and first ever flying model!
Regards, Glen

[Ranger]

Wow, My brain Just kicked in a bit! now I understand this one: Your throttle curve could be linear or a little steeper depending on what you/your motor like. idle%, 50%, 100% or idle%, 70%, 100% etc. More or less depending on if you want a low HS at hover but thats what the hover trims are for"

[swatson144]

Yep we be gettin there!

the curves need to match at the point you switch flight modes or you get instant undesired response. It is best to leave everything above 1/2 stick the same so you can switch from/to IU at any point at or above 1/2 stick. You want to have the same throttle and pitch when you change modes! Gross example if IU1 is all 0s then if you shifted to IU1 your motor would quit and you'd have -10 degrees pitch :shock: . So be carefull and check, recheck and check again the next day.


The theory is that you want your HS to be fairly constant. (that's not an absolute as some people like the motor sound to change to a degree along with the rotor pitch) . The idea is if you need power we want power stored in the rotor and not have to wait on the rotor to pick up speed to be able to deliver the power.

I'll talk 5pt as it's second nature for me 7pt would be easy to interpolate and it seems the TX just smoothes the extra points in any way.

I'd go with normal being
PC 45%, 47.5%, 50% 75% 100% which is to say -2, -1, 0, 5, 10 degrees
TC being Idle%, 25%, 50%, 75%, 100%,

IU1
PC 45%, 47.5%, 50% 75% 100% which is to say -2, -1, 0, 5, 10 degrees
TC 50%, 50% 50% 75% 100%

IU2
PC 0%, 25%, 50% 75% 100% which is to say -10, -5, 0, 5, 10 degrees
TC 100%, 75% 50% 75% 100% *pls see note below*

You start in normal and spool up. At about or above 50% throttle you switch to IU1 (in the air or on the ground your choice) and fly on deciding it's time to land you can switch to normal and land or land and then switch and spool down to throttle kill. Me knowing nothing about glow (except from 20 yrs ago) these are probably not the best curves but would work fine and be a decent place to start. without worries about overspeed. You may like 50% throttle headspeed to hover or it may be too fast/slow (slower HS on CP helis is more stable until it starts to wallow). I'm actually just trying to help you conceptionalize the process. once you have the concept it's very simple to change as you find fault.


*a note on IU2 it might be a good idea to start with it being the same as IU1 so if you "flip through" the IU1 switch position it won't be nearly as exciting, though you still wouldn't be able to auto rotate, just until you've made enough cycles from normal to IU1 with out ending up in IU2*

I like to do the maiden hover with about 30% expo and If I find that to be to much stick moving set it down and dial down to what I think will be about right. Neat thing about expo is you still have full control if you need it, it's just softened around the middle for more precise control. With your TX I'm sure the expo can be programmed in each flight mode so you can have 30% in normal for hovering and less for flight.

Below is an explanation of the "other way"
You could (as I assume from your earlier post) set limits on the pitch servo for your -2 to +10 degrees and it works fine with 0% to 100% linear pitch curve (If you want to fly in fixed pitch mode or full stick) or some other permutation to fly in the top half of the stick like 0%, 1%, 3%, 25% 50%, 75%, 100%. I think you'll find that you are doing away with a lot of adjustability in the future, adding confusion (now what % is 0 pitch?) , and will never be able to auto rotate if the need arises. It's simpler in the long run to get a good mechanical center with a full pitch range and use the pitch curves to groom the overall pitch to what you want. It get's very confusing later when you use servo limits on pitch (or swash AFR on CCPM)and start running more than 1 heli. You have to figure out what % gives what pitch. It's so easy in the long run to know that 0% = max negative, 50% = 0, and 100% = max positive. (rates based on what won't clash full cyclic and collective each way combined). You can easily check for center after several blade tracking episodes by going to center stick and checking for 0 pitch vice" I should be at 5.5 degrees center stick, I think". Heck if you decide you want to fly FP mode (using the whole stick) you can always adjust TC and PC to do so (never put anything past a scaler). You'd just spread the PC + out and get the throttle up in the early quadrants TC Idle%, 50% 60%, 80%, 85%, 90%, 100%. PC of 47%, 60%, 67%, 74%, 81%, 88%,100%, or something simular. Warning bad habits that are hard (and expensive) to break are formed with that idea.

Gist is a good mechanical setup and use the TC to control the throttle and the PC to set the pitch where/how you want.
:)

Steve

[Ranger]

Steve,
I think you be gettin there faster than me :D BUT!
You said something at the beginning of your last post that made every thing else fall into place.

When you said some people like to hear the engine change tone with pitch change, I personally, have never heard a full size heli engine change engine sound, only pitch change when the rotors "bite" more when going to a more positive pitch or spooling down. Hence, constant head speed!

I can now "visualize" the curves, how they work and what effect small changes would have on them.

I will start with these curves while learning to fly, and adjust as I progress, to get a feel that is right for me. It's amazing that part of one sentence, can bring every thing into perspective.

At this point though, I would like to say to ALL newbies like myself, If you can, try to find your selfs a mentor in your area that you can go to when you need help, along with all the good people here on the forum like swatson144,Broker,G-MRM, Eddiemoth,medtech,sleepstalker, just to name a few, who seem always ready to help :D
I can't find anyone close to where I live, so will have to go it alone,not something I would recommend if you can help it, though I know some would not agree.

Don't think for a minute that I'm done yet! I may have to continue some more on this thread, and of coarse, Gyro coming next :D

Most of all, at this point I would like to thank Steve for his patience and willingness to help. But please Steve, don't go too far away!
Best regards Glen.

[swatson144]

No problem! I'm pretty used to it. It takes something to make it "click" that there are two curves that work together but are adjusted independently. No magic it's so simple that it's easy to make something hard of it. This go round was pretty easy.

No matter how hard anyone wishes I probably ain't going anywhere.

Gyros are a snap.

Steve

[Ranger]

OK Guys, I'm back.
Having trouble getting -10 to +10 pitch range. The servo doesn't seem to have that much travel. Push rod is set at 54mm as per manual, it is connected at the recommended 15mm from center of servo horn it is also connected at the recommended point on the pitch lever. I only seem to be getting from about 5.5 (hover) to about +9

I tried up to 150% ATV, to no avail. Could this be a programming problem?
or should I disregard the recommended servo horn in place of a longer one?

If this turns out to be a mechanical problem, perhaps we should start a mechanical set up thread!

Here we go again :D Glen

Here are two photo's that show the travel

[swatson144]

Your servo and pitch tray only seem to be moving one direction. The arm needs to be parralel to the servo at center. Probably can get a better fit just by centering servo and flipping the horn around until you get 1 arm the closest.
Sorry but this is the only mechanical I have right now the rest are ccpm.

Quick points
you should be in IU. If you are roughly setting up as mentioned before probably IU2 would be best, simply so you don't have to over write it to get Normal where you want, and you can flip back IU2 and sanity check.

pitch curve should be 0, 25, 50, 75, 100.

check servo limits pitch chan for 100% both ways.

If you have a pitch setting in swash AFR make sure it's 100% both ways. with 1 servo pitch you may not even have a swash AFR available.


If the above doesn't make sense I'll flip through the man and convert to JR speak.

Steve

[Ranger]

Steve,
I don't know how to put two pics side by side!
First 2 photo's are norm and iu-1 (both the same) in high and low positions and 2nd 2 are iu-2 (full travel) but to get it I had to set the servo atv to 150% both ways. 5.5-6deg (hover) is one graduation past center stick

[Ranger]

IU2

[swatson144]

Cool! looks like all you need to do is lengthen the linkage a bit and you'll be dead on -10 0 and +10 then just input the proper Normal and IU1 PC. Then check and double check with the pitch gauge in all modes to make sure you are getting what is expected.

Steve

[Ranger]

Steve,

At the risk of sounding proper GOOSE! what do you mean, input the proper normal and IU1 PC? I thought I did! :?:
Glen

[swatson144]

If you want the full range -10 to +10 then it's good (you don't wan't that in normal!) you'll want to change the "lower stick" PC to give you -2 degrees to 0 degrees at mid stick and +10 degrees at "top stick"

So if you have all your flight modes set to 0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, 100%, you have full pitch travel. Setting Normal to ~ 47%, 48.5%, 50%, 75%, 100% will give you a couple degrees negative at bottom stick, 0 degrees at mid stick and +10 degrees at the top.

Or did I miss understand what you did?

Steve

[Ranger]

All I did was change the servo travel to 150% high and 150% low to get it where it is in the pics.

[swatson144]

Oh never mind, I see you did set them up that way my bad I misunderstood the "both the same " I see now you are getting a little negative in Norm & IU1, with full pitch in IU2. Good JoB!

Probably time to start a setup thread now that you have the programming down and let The Broker and G-MRM (rappy pilots) get you set up with the particulars.

Steve

[Ranger]

No worries! thanks again
Glen

[swatson144]

Good luck on that pretty heli. I've had a blast with this.

Steve