I'm building a brushless CP2

[swatson144]

I had a stock CP2 a while back and was pretty unimpressed with it and sold it within a month. I had a lot of other things going on with a belt conversion for an H2, an x400 build, along with some other stuff so another fiddly needy heli was not welcome.

I'm beginning to wonder if I gave it a fair shake. So my buddy has one that is down and out for lack of a 4n1 (that I'm gonna repair someday) and I asked if since the repair guy is taking so long could I borrow it please? He said Sure. Well he had one of my Astro 020s on his corona for months :D.

So full seperates from spares and the fun will begin.

I'm thinking

Razor Heli V2 on a phoenix 10A for the main

GWS 12-rxn and a bluebird 5A esc on the tail maybe later I'll plug the 12mm feigo I have laying around into another PHX-10 and see.

MS-44 HH gyro, If I don't like that, the thing may have to lug around a GY-401 that's sitting NIB.

I have a set of stock blades for it and several sets of Like90 254mm, maybe som H2 sized carbons (probably have to stretch the boom) even with a DD tail.

The first iteration of it will be as if I had to buy the parts to go seperates with a bad 4n1 and will be cheap. I'll use the RX from the 4n1, and just add the good stuff. I'll leave the servos alone, stock skids, frame etc. I won't be using the stock TX at all though, since I never have. When I say cheap I'm not talking cheap parts just good solid buy it once stuff. Who knows what may come later. I guarantee no bling parts though.

I made arrangements to get it next time we get together, but since our wives work together I wouldn't be surprised if she came home with it this evening.

Steve

[The Broker]

Steve you really ought to work for NASA you are a born tinkerer/inventor :D

[MAXXED]

I'm considering the same project, too, swatson.
After figuring out that the stock electronics are extremely low quality, and the transmitter and receiver glitch frequently, I'm going to scrap anything with eSky or eFlite on the electronics and go with separates.
I'm even considering building a belt driven tail Blade CP.
It will have to wait though, my Mini Zoom will be here shortly.
I'll post some pics and a review on it when it gets here. :)

[Futura]

I'm enjoying mine....allot.

GWS 6ch RX (JR6102 TX)
Venom 20a ESC -> Himax 2015 3600 w/9t pinion
Phoenix 10 -> GY240 -> Fuegao 12mm with GWS Direct Drive addaptor & 4530 prop

around 2350 HS at hover with fresh pack (TP1320)

The tail hold tight and the main motor is 115 deg after 15 min of cont. flying....tail motor is barely warm. Battery is 90 deg.

Its a little fat @ 405 grams including battery (all up RTF) but the power is more than sufficient.

Here's a video from tonights trip to the gym
http://www.cindy4citycouncil.com/images/STA71892_output.wmv

[eddiemoth]

It sounded very smooth and effortless. It is kind of dark in the video. Would you mind posting a couple close up pictures without canopy on to show how you mounted these parts. Did you have to modify the frame to mount the Himax 2015 3600? It is amazing to see how to fit these within the Blade canopy. Great brushless upgrade!

[Futura]

I didn't have to modify the frame for the motor that I remember. Before that though I was using the venom brushless and didn't like it. I had to make the hole the motor seats through larger for that so....

I'm not sure if I would have needed to do the same for the himax or not since the hole was already a tad larger.

Here are some pictures.

The ESC's are up front. the RX and Gyro are in the back. I'm using the stock tail motor mount (honed out round). the tail boom was already 1" shorter than stock to fit a Darth MD500 fuselage better.

http://www.cindy4citycouncil.com/images/600_Sta71894.jpg
http://www.cindy4citycouncil.com/images/600_Sta71896.jpg
http://www.cindy4citycouncil.com/images/600_Sta71898.jpg

[eddiemoth]

Thank you thank you thank you! Great pictures

[swatson144]

Thanks for running with this thread! I still haven't gotten up with my buddy to borrow one of his cp2s. :oops:

Nice flying, nice heli.

One little point is that several people have banged the wire end of their feigao into an object and trashed it. Glueing a piece of cf rod from a broken strut in the bearing housing so it hangs out past the end of the motor is very light and offers it pretty good protection.

I don't think I'm gonna do a CP2 anymore. I have a big electric cp coming and I'd maybe get finished with the cp2 about the time Ballistic technology gets it all cut out and mailed to me. Then it'd consume all my time and I'd just wind up putting Rick's back to stock and handing it back to him. So as not to tie it up for no reason.

Steve

[swatson144]

I just noticed castle creations has the Genie package back on sale http://www.castlecreations.com/products/geni-25.html 45$ and you get an old style PHX 25 and a mamba motor! Rick has one running on one of his CP2s, (from the last time they were offering it) and it does well though there is little fat elsewhere. The motor is a bit of overkill but where better to have extra grams. I have one on an H2 and it's about perfect after adding a SS pinion (the plastic pinion can't take the power :wink: )

I was thinking maybe after building the BL CP2 (back burnered) I'd maybe move the genie over from the H2 and put a set of Like90 254mm blades on it with a suitable tailboom length.

Great bargain and perhaps a very good diet plan for a portly CP2, to get the disk loading back down. That'd make it like an H2 with a motorized tail and inexpensive to crash.

Steve

[Futura]

Thanks Swatson144 for the idea about protecting the feigao wire end. I guess I've been lucky through several "Hard Landings" :roll: . Should not be a problem setting up some type of protection for it though.

[swatson144]

Since my HV-45 went TU and CC has it for repairs I'm thinking about reserecting this project. The Free style won't be eating much of my time. I got an airframe from Rick and he got a BTCP Corona so he won't miss it (I loaned him a big horken 540 10L to power it, so it's all good). I ordered up 2 12$ 9A BL ESCs to have a look at and if they pan out on bench testing I think I'll have to give it ago.

I'm thinking
Himax 2025 (4200KV) since I have one in spares. There's an assortment in spares if I can't get that geared right.
Feiago 12x30mm 4200 or I have a nice 18mm outrunner and mount I made a while back which may work well with a good gyro, but was way too much power with the gyros I had on hand.
2x elcheapo esc if they work out PHX10s if not If I run into a power problem I have a PHX25 in spares.
2100T gyro

I'm shooting for light and plenty of power. If I miss on the light I'll just stretch the boom and run Like90 254mm blades from spares. I think I'd really like to make a turn key 200$ conversion and maybe list some workable more premium gear. Right now it's pretty much thinking outloud

[yoshihiro]

isn't very heavy to lift off?

[swatson144]

As best I can recall the outrunner rig was roughly the same weight as a DD setup.

Steve

[swatson144]

OK it's in progress so it'll be done soon.

Went with the 4200 KV Castle creations Mamba.

Cut a new tail boom to 12.5"

decided I would likely need some where to hang gear so I cobbled up a lite ply electronics shelf. It will go below the battery tray supports but I just set it there for the picture.

Steve

[swatson144]

I got far enough along to know it's gonna come in at a bit less than 350g AUW with a tp 1320 3s on it.

Steve

[swatson144]

I got it all connected this morning and spun it up to find that I have a severe case of the sticky head. I knew I needed to go through the head as it was severly soft dampened and has 2mm of slack in the feathering shaft. I never even got in the air HS was 2200rpm and I got to 3/4 throttle +5 degrees pitch and it never even made a difference in sound. Just sat there daring me to give it enough pitch so it'd snap free and auger into my ceiling.

I'll be back after I make some shims and go through the head. I've a feeling that this isn't gonna be one of my favorite helis.

Specs

AUW 340g (sans canopy)
1320 prolite
stock esky servos
PHX-25 and 4200KV Mamba 10t pinion
PHX10 and 12mm 4200 feigo on the tail
2100T gyro


Steve

[G-MRM]

It's not the old 'wrong washers on the blade grips' problem is it Steve ????

I almost took the lights out at home with mine :oops: :oops:

[swatson144]

It is indeed. I don't think this one was ever disassembled. I also found the feathering shaft slightly bent but I'll just chuck that up and true it with a dial indicator.

I'm trying to avoid ordering any thing for it because I disliked the one I bought/sold so much. This whole excercise is to see if it's worth having with the same sloppy head but decent tail control. Besides I'm a bit better pilot now and probably more tolerant of the heli doing unexpected stuff like swinging NI. :lol: One of my pet peeves is people forgetting where they were pilot wise when they "had one of those and it was worthless" on any brand. I don't want to be like that and thought I'd revisit the CP2. If this one erks me I'll pretty much be able to get it behind me :D . Completely different airframe, with better components.

Steve

[G-MRM]

I had 2 eSky CP2's ( one for parts ) they ere Ok but I felt the std CP was better, more stable ( still not that stable) The washer problem was found on all 3 !! It don't always show up at first but it will at some time. I turned up the small washers with a undercut on the outer edge to clear the outer of the ball race. Just use small washers also works !! Must re try my CP and see how I find it now!!

[swatson144]

Not only were the washers in the wrong place but they left 2 out. That's why the thing had such soft dampening. I put the step washer out board where it should be and added 2 regular ole 3mm washers inboard to compress the Orings very slightly and I may be onto something as the dampening seems about right. I went through the original one I owned and did the same thing but I don't recall if I left the slack or if it needed the additional washers. I'm beginning to suspect the ones they install all the washers are tight and stick right off the jump and the ones they leave the 2 to back the orings out (and use the stepped washer in their place) are loose enough to only stick sometimes at the low stock HS.

I'm doing a reload on a computer so I guess I'll have time to stick the blades on and see.

Steve

[swatson144]

Nope still sticks but not near as bad. I suppose the missing part of the ceiling fan chain will turn up sometime. :lol:

I suspect my head speed is a little high. Besides that I think getting it outside and running it will be OK. I don't think the airframe has much more than 15 mins on it. It's a little too exciting in my small living room for a panty waiste like me. I know that dousing the head with silcone lube seems to help but I don't want to sling that all over.

To be continued when it ain't blowing 30 mph outside. On a nice note the 3 collective pumps (required by conditions beyond my control) the tail held solid.

Steve

[G-MRM]

Sounds like your getting there !!!! May try mine tonight !!!!! (if I get time)

[swatson144]

I got a decent hover in the living room as the weather is still nasty. The HS was too high. It has a decent head speed now a little lower than I like but it was doing pretty well. The tail was working very well indeed.

I might need a smaller pinion as I'm running about 60% throttle at hover, but I haven't set the end points on the ESC so who knows what it really is? It could be 90% actual. That will have to wait until I can get it outside and high enough to see the LED on the ESC.

Steve

[swatson144]

I visited a friend Sat. and tried to fly in 20mph winds and it was getting owned. I finished the pack indoors. Got the tracking straight and let the guy that owns the airframe play with it for a while.

There is still no sign of my elcheapo 12$ BL ESCs. I am sorta looking forward to seeing if I can get this thing brushless on the cheap. I don't see the real point in 100$ worth of ESC on this heli.

Now let's see

2X 12$ brushless speed controllers 24$
a decent cheap brushless main motor 20$
Feigao 12mm brushless tail motor 28$
GWS prop adapter 5$
A really good Gyro that can move to the next heli 120$
Computer TX 300$

So if the next iteration works out the total cost for a stock BCP/CP2 owner would be about 500$ but the abandon in place cost would only be about 75$ as the TX and gyro could be used on the next heli. Frankly the 45$ on the tail motor/ESC/adpt and the gyro are optional. That'd pretty much make the TX optional also, but since I firmly believe the TX is the best upgrade possible for a RTF we won't really dwell on that. Lots of options but this is about FULL BL separates right?

Previously I mentioned that I did my build with what I had now I'm looking to get my good gear back where it belongs and build cheap, and see how it goes. Anyone interested?

Steve

[swatson144]

the 2 12$ 10A ESCs came in today. I'll be doing a through bench test on both of them and see how they do.

No Instructions but that'd be a bit much to ask for ehh?

[swatson144]

Looks like they'll do I did a bunch of runs to build up to this chart and stopped there because 80W is about all the motor is good for.

Throttle response was the biggest concern but they seem to be as linear as the CC PHX10A. Well I still need to bench test the other.

I think any further testing should be done on an airframe and I'm about ready to start.

These tests were done with 16" of motor wire that will fit inside the boom.

[MAXXED]

Due to trial and error, I've tried a 3800kv, 4200kv, and 5400kv motor on Blade.
The 5400kv motor was total overkill, and nearly uncontrollable, even with an 8 tooth pinion.
The 3800kv motor was a bit anemic, and made the cyclic response sluggish. Everything seemed to be in slow motion.
The 4200kv motor is the perfect balance of cyclic response and has lots of power.
I've been running it with 3 cell li-pos and an 8 tooth pinion.
It easily gets 10+ minutes of flight time, and has good cyclic response.
Putting the Bell HIller conversion on it sharpened up the response even more.
Running a 9 tooth would probably cut down the run time, but would allow for even more razor sharp response for acrobatics and 3D.

[swatson144]

Yep 4200kv 10t for me right now. I got a chance to fly the thing this evening and with 60% on the throttle curve the head seems not to stick but is way slow 2k ish. I think my tracking problem was caused by a cracked blade. That became alot easier to figure out when it parted in flight about 1" from the root :lol:

It's a bit of a slow air pig. I've put the shims back in to tighten the dampening so that should help. Next step I guess will be to shorten the flybar and see if I can't get it to react.

I may need to see about repropping the tail as the 2100T seems to have nothing to set delay with and on 3s it stops a piro right when commanded but swings back about 1/4 turn and then returns to the stopping point. I'll tinker with that next decent day (forecast looks bleek). In flight you can't ask for a beter motor driven tail though, just the piro thing.

Steve

[swatson144]

I put the shims back in between the O rings and the grips so it is much more firmly dampened.

I did a 10 min check flight and it flys more like a heli than a kids toy. Increasing my throttle curve brought it up to an estimated 2200 rpm head speed and it starts to become fun. Everything landed cold as it was 39F and winds 6/8mph.

I'll continue this later with a different tail prop but right now I feel the urge to play with the Freestyle.

Steve

[swatson144]

I snuck in a flight on it with a 2s 1700mAH. I had a chance to do some trimming the other day in the lee of the house and got it seemingly OK. TC normal 0% 45% 100%, 100% 100%

Turns out it was pretty good. Not a hot performer but the power was more in line with the cyclic the tail was holding good and I could do fast piros with decent stops. I'm finding that a HH gyro on a motorized tail doesn't have any real advantage for me. It would maybe be an advantage for someone learning to hover as it does indeed lock the tail, so that's one less thing to worry about. In flight it kinda locks the tail but I can't see any real advantage over a well configured rate gyro as there just isn't any real precision. There is a slight improvement but nothing like with a driven tail.

All in all it was the most enjoyable CP2 flight I've ever had. The heli seemed to have a nice balance of power and control and was pretty fun. It pretty much fit my semi scale flying style. I'll play with it some more with a 2S I think it could use a tail prop not trimmed so much.

I haven't bothered to change out the PHX-10 for the 12$ ESC but I did install one in the moth on the same tail setup it works fine and seemingly just as good as the CC that one is running through a PG-03 gyro. This could be a decent answer to short tail motor life for 50$

Steve

[swatson144]

Dragged it out again with esky king blades on it. same Castle Creations Mamba motor 2042 10T. Turned the HS down to 50% on the max and the thing flew well enough to mess with some more. It now has a rate gyro (HeliMax) as it is no way worthy of a HH and I like the way the motorized tails fly with rate and revo. Naturally revo was way off.

With the seperates I had in hand the thing is pretty porky at 365g RTF. It seems the biggest problem was when I got the HS up where I wanted with the CP2 blades it would stick. When it didn't stick it was a craptastic flyer and wallowed too bad.

Pictured as tested please forgive the mess but I haven't spent much time grooming it, and way too much trying to make it fly well.

Steve

[ranger306ci]

Steve,
why do you keep torturing yourself with the CP2? With the other helis in your life, you should just sell me the parts of this one, so I can canabalize it for the compy and moths.
I bought a CP2 and I love it. The head fits my compy great, and the rest of it made a good FP moth!
I am still trying to figure out what to do with the transmitter, though.

[swatson144]

Seemingly I just like the frustration. Everything else works so doggone good.

Steve

[G-MRM]

Steve you just love playing, maybe you need some very small thrust bearings on the blade grips ?

Martin

[swatson144]

That's very likely Martin, but that's probably 2ndary to replacing about 75 other parts.:rolleyes:

Steve

[zen]

Steve—

your patience with the CP/2 is a fine, textbook example of heli addicition. Your research with this bird will surely egg the rest of us on.

I like your remarks that qualify statements about helicopters in the light of pilots' experience. I have said a few things about the Blade CP Pro, for example—entirely unfit for print—that I now contradict entirely because I have a modicum of experience.