Mechanical set up?

[Ranger]

Hi all,
I'm just about ready to fly, but not quite there yet. I seem to have the programming under control thanks to swatson144.
Does anyone have any input regarding Mechanical set up? To the best of my knowledge, all the linkage rods are ok, and blade track,according to pitch gage, should be close ( re-check when fired up ) No indication of binding.
I know I must have forgotten something!!
Regards, Glen

R 50v2

[G-MRM]

Hi Ranger, I can help you with this as my Raptor V2 is almost at the setting up stage. :lol:

I am a little behind you plus I am taking 'The Broker' away for a little winter holiday next week however if you can work with me I think that would be the best way to go. Also while I am away I am meeting a person who is selling me a Raptor 50 SE air frame, that too will need setting when I am back :wink: ( it was so cheap I just had to have a SE in the fleet !

I was going to use 'Brokers' Titan to help you with but as you may know they changed the links to push - pull. I can and will take photos of the mechanical set-up so you see if yours is the same.

You know your radio side, that's good as I fly Futaba and am setting up on my new 9CAP Tx.

This will be the 2nd Raptor I have set up and my 6th 50 size heli so I am sure we will have them flying well !!

You will need a set of training legs and a kids play hoop for the test flights
this is so if anything happens with the engine you will be safe, I am also looking at a head loader that you could use when setting the engine up, the head loader will let the engine get up to speed without any lift this will enable you to set the engine up and make sure it is working properly and correctly tuned.

[Ranger]

Hi G-MRM
I would be more than happy to work with you on this one, and I have training wheels ready to go! But Looking at your photo, you don't have anything to set up. your heli is empty :D
Glen

[G-MRM]

No probs I will soon get it ready !! I have been making the front catch fit these new skids you see !! I do like the Quick UK ones, big and bright.
Hope to fit engine tonight, fitting fan etc on now ! More later Ranger .

[Ranger]

Hi G-MRM,

The Titan and v2 look similar from what I've seen apart from the push-pull.
I am very interested in seeing the head loader! but it's no problem to wait till you get back from your winter holliday, It's just getting into summer here.Hot christmas No Fair! :cry:
Cheers, Glen

[G-MRM]

Yes the Titan is 99% the same but better you see link rods the same as yours Ranger. Before I fitted the engine last night I had to play with the fan, see my post.
http://www.helitown.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2160&sid=ede59ae636019358cd26b935ee4029ef#2160
Anyway, I will move onto basic set ups tonight for you. I won't do the nice wiring for now as I can't fly it until I am back, but we can still set it up !

I was just thinking that head loaders may help you set the engine up without it taking off, not sure of the price so you may care to look.
The other way would be to fix her down VERY WELL to say two wood beams or whatever you have about in your garage :roll: then you could spin her up to 80% to make sure you get lots of smoke while running in and test engine temp after a few mins.

[Ranger]

G-MRM,
They don't look too hard to make, as long as they match the weight of 600mm blades.
How important is it to test engine temp? I don't yet have the heli digital thermometer. Should I get one ASAP? and I'm not running a governor on mine, do I need to? the manual didn't tell me I need one. I think I still have a bit to do! :D

[G-MRM]

I would not make a head loader unless you have metal-working workshop, they need to be in balance plus they will be spinning at 1500 - 1700 rpm !

What engine have you fitted to the Raptor? Once you have run the engine for 3 mins hovering, set it down and see how hot the two bolt heads are that hold the engine mount onto the side franes :roll:
They should be warm, if you fell that the heads are hot on the tips of your fingers, it is too hot. Make it richer... :lol:

You will also get to know how thing are with the smoke, you need to make smoke, this is good as you will be on the rich side giving more fuel thus keeping the engine cooler and well lubricated.

Have you run nitro before ? I had a long time ago but I picked up a lot more in the short time I have started to fly nitro.

[Ranger]

Ok, I won't make them. I do a fair bit of metal work, but I don't have a lathe any more.
The engine is the one that came with it . Thunder tiger 50.
I have run nitro a long time ago, about 20 years or so. I have forgotten most of it by now, so I am starting New!
Glen

I have to Escort a house down the highway this morning, so I will be back in about 7-8 hours
Cheers.

[G-MRM]

Well, my setup may not be the same as you want..... however follow me on this one !!

My club set the helis up all the same, with both sticks centred all servos are parallel to the vertical or horizontal. The swash is square to the main shaft, all arms on the head are parallel to each other, throttle on the engine is 50% with zero pitch on the blades. With throttle low we will have -3 deg pitch, stick to the top we will have +8 to start you off.

This way, for the future, you can go into 3D without a big change. You won't with this heli as it is scale, but maybe the next you will, so keeping centre stick at zero pitch now will help, but it is up to you ! The Brokers rappy and as said all of mine are set this way.

We don't need to set the idle ups at this stage, just the standard setting will get you started.

So, all my 6 photos are taken with the Tx sticks centred, all trims the same but NOT the throttle, this trim is set right to the bottom, low. Make sure all sub trim settings in the Tx are zero, none set, all servo travel 100% both ways. Not Sure what JR call this...

The rods are set as the book but then adjusted to make things line-up.
So, make sure all the servo arms are as mine in the pics, turn any over 180deg if they are a little out. then you use sub trim in the TX to centre the servos when you have done the best you can with moving the horns.

If pic 1 is the same pic 2 should also look the same, the ball lines up with the screw in the arm at the back, items marked 1 and 2 in yellow.
Pic 3 shows that side with all arms vertical, the swash should be square to the main shaft left to right. Camera makes some not look vertical !

[G-MRM]

In this set of photos you adjust the link in Pic 4 to make the arms on the head in pic 5 match each other. You can have this on the outer ball, that is fine as on this model you will never need +/- 10 deg of pitch.

This makes the head set for zero pitch with all arms neutral ready to go + or - pitch as required.

Pic 6 shows both throttle arm of servo and engine vertical and the engine arm MUST be sitting in the middle of it's travel, engine carb 50% OPEN. Now move the throttle to full low, and with Tx settings for servo travel/end points, adjust the throttle servo so the carb is fully closed BUT not so that the servo is binding as in still pulling it against the stop. Next move throttle to full top, adjust the servo at this end to open the carb FULLY again without binding the servo. Remember these adjustments with the Tx throttle trim on the outside of the Tx fully down.....

Once finished, move the outside throttle trim to centre, this will set the idle speed of your engine. At this point read the JR Tx book and set throttle cut, so with the throttle stick at low, when you switch throttle cut you see the throttle servo move back those few deg to the FULLY CLOSED position.

Before we move to the head we have to get to this point first !! Let me know what you find hard to do or understand !! You need a pitch gauge for the head settings !!

[Ranger]

I found only one difference, Your pitch servo has been flipped over to keep the linkage rod straight, where as I followed the manual. Do I need to ignore the book,and change it?

[Ranger]

G-MRM,
Huston, I think we have a problem!! None of mine line up like yours. I've checked the rod lengths and they all seem to be as per book..
Or have I gone wrong some where?(gunna make you work for this one are'nt I?)

[Ranger]

Now every thing is now lined up as per your photo's but I had to adjust all the rods to get them there, and I'm about to turn the pitch servo over to match yours.
just one question, will this mechanical set up work with my current pitch settings? http://helitown.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=397&start=15 Or do we deal with that one later?

OK, I managed to get every thing lined up as per your pics with the exception of one thing... the built in pitch gage, It reads 0 or -1 not -2, every thing else is the same! with the sticks centered.

I'll delete my pics as we go. so as not to take up too much room.

[Ranger]

pic 4

[G-MRM]

I have added the words to my 6 photos, have a read and let me know how you get on ! It may be better to this thread if we edit some of these posts after if ok with you, may make it better for others to follow you see.....

[eddiemoth]

Very nice illustration!

[Ranger]

G-MRM,
edited text on page 1

[G-MRM]

Well done for following me ! I don't use the pitch markings on the chassis sides, we will cover that with a real pitch guage on the blades. You have the throttle cut Ok? You need throttle cut to work when the throttle stick is in the low to say 10% up, NOT HIGHER, just in case you knock the switch while flying !! (and totaly cut the engine off)

You will need to setup throttle hold, again read the Tx book but when all set if you turn on throttle hold the throttle servo will move to the idle setting (same as the throttle stick low BUT not right back to the cut position) however, the blades DO NOT change pitch. This lets you practice autos and if you have motor problems do a real lift auto...... this will work where ever the throttle stick is.

The head.....

First, set pitch and thrittle curves to 0 25 50 75 100% in tx and set both sticks in the centre, with the pitch gauge adjust blades for zero pitch, remember the pitch should be set at 50% keeping the two arms an the flybar top paarallel to the flybar. ( I will add a photo of this) now with throttle stick to the 3/4 position, adjust pitch curve to give you +5.5 deg (hovering pitch), move stick to full top, adjust pitch setting to give you +8 deg. Move the stick down to 1/4 adjust pitch for -2 deg and with it fully down -3 deg

To recap, as you move the throttle up the engine will go from tick over to 1/4 to 1/2 to 3/4 to full power. The blades will start at -3 to -2 to zero to +5 to +8 pitch.

When your flying you may need to put more neg pitch on, if your flying and the wind catches it, you need to bring in neg pitch to bring her down BUT when you do your bringing engine power down too, slowing down the blades and that's not what we want. When your flying you can get the feel for this and naybe take it to -4 with -3 at 1/4 stick.

However.... when your in trouble, you don't want to bring the stick hard down because the neg pitch will bring it down fast. Later on you can set idles to cover this BUT will you think fast to switch over to another idle before bring it down when it's all going wrong !!

See how you get on with this stage, I need to do mine however I may run low on time tonight !

[Ranger]

Hi G-MRM,

I have just started to set up the head. With sticks centered, the only way I could get -3 and +8 was to use the travel adjust to set low stick and then High to get +8. Throttle cut is set.

To get 5.5 at 3/4 stick I normally would expect to change the 75% value until I got 5.5, but I have 7 point curves. eg: 0,?,?,50,?,?,100 I suspect that It isn't that hard, and I'm probably just trying to keep up a reasonable pace for every one who is watching! :D and my batteries just went flat :cry:
Glen

[Ranger]

OK,
try this on for size, L= -3, pos 1= -2, pos 2= -1, pos 3 = 0, pos 4 = +4, pos 5 = +6, pos H = +8

Pitch curve no's: 0,14.5,30,48,75,88,100.

Throttle curve:0,16.5,33,50,66.5,83.5,100
Glen

[G-MRM]

I have just started to set up the head. With sticks centered, the only way I could get -3 and +8 was to use the travel adjust to set low stick and then High to get +8. Throttle cut is set.

Not sure that is correct ? With the stick in the centre you have to get zero pitch, move stick 1/6th adjust to get +4 move anotehr 1/6th adjust to get +6 then right to the top will be point 7 and adjust to +8 deg. same with the neg ones etc etc

With the pitch curve a zero and stick at low what neg did you get? Also at 100% with stick at the top (high) what + pitch did you get ?

Ok on 7 point curves, set to..... -3 -3 -2 0 +4 +6 +8 deg of pitch. :lol:

[G-MRM]

Yes that will be Ok, the stick will be at about 3/4 high at hover, +5.5 deg, so as you move the throttle up, you see the pitch change from -3 to +8 and the engine carb moves from close to full open in a linear line ?

Have you read about throttle hold yet ?

[Ranger]

Throttle hold seems to be doing it's thing.

Do you want me to try the -3, -3, -2 etc your way and see what I get?

[G-MRM]

Your be Ok with your settings, you may want to change these a little once your flying to make it better for you !

So I take it your all done part from the tail servo and gyro ?

What instuructions came with that engine re the needle settings both main and idle ?? I don't have them for my T Tiger 50, I used 5 turns on the idle screw and 4 for the main jet needle and would like to know what I should have used !! :roll:

[Ranger]

G-MRM,
The instructions are not overly clear (to me )they say to open the needle valve 3 turns from closed position, The rest,????? I'll send you a copy and perhaps you can explain to every one what it says. :D
And yep we're up to the tail and Gyro.

[G-MRM]

Hi Ranger, yes if you can scan it for me please that would be good !

[G-MRM]

The tail....
Read the GY 401 quick setup guide first !! Turn DS switch on the gyro to on if your using the 9354 servo or any other digital servo. If using digital servo also turn the delay pot to zero.

On the Tx, make sure 'Revo' or 'rudder tail mixing' is turned off or inhibited. Work out the gyro gain channel swich that you will be using and set to 55% in each swich position, this sets gyro gain in both modes, std and HH.

Remove tail link from servo end and make sure when you push and pull the link it is very free and easy to move the tail blades.
With rudder stick centred along with the outside trim, turn on radio switch to STD mode, NOT HH MODE, and make sure servo arm is vertical. Adjust if not.

Connect links back and adjust the link rods so the arm that connects to the tail pitch slider is at 90deg to the boom as in photos below. This sets the tail blade angle to approx 15 deg.

Adjust the limit pot on gyro so when you move the rudder stick the pitch slider moves the full length of the tail shaft without hitting the ends.

Switch onto HH mode, look at the pitch of the tail blades, with the tail of the heli towards you, nose away, move tail of heli to your right, the pitch of the tail blades should increase. When moving the tail to the left the pitch decreases. If this is the other way round, move the DIR switch on gyro to the other position.

To test HH and STD modes are working, move the rudder stick to the left and back to centre, if the gyro is in std rate mode the tail blades will return to the 15deg position, if you are in HH mode the blades will move to the end of the tail shaft and stay there when you return the stick to the centre.

Have a go, see how you get on !!!!
:lol:

[Ranger]

Hi G-MRM
I just got home, I'll get into It now and get back to you very soon
Glen

[G-MRM]

Ranger, I could not help with the linkage photos as I am not too keen on this way of fitting.

I bought the kit to boom mount the servo and have one Carbon Fibre link rod. My Raptor was 2nd hand but before I removed the link to the front mounted servo I did find it was binding, so do make sure it is easy to move but with no free play.

[Ranger]

G- MRM,
Sorry but your way ahead of me. how do I switch from HH to STD? On my Tx F-Mod switch, norm red light on gyro comes on, IU 1 and 2 it turns off

[G-MRM]

I don't think you want to turn HH off and on via Idle ups, on the futaba you can select a switch to a channel, so the one I use is mapped to CH 5 gyro gain. Back to reading the JR book I think Ranger ! If you had-to use IU1, you would have to make sure ALL the setting are the same as normal mode, thus moving to IU1 would ONLY change the gyro but that's not the way to do it.

I am sure you can set it, once you do you can adjust servo travel for CH5, this is what controls the gyro modes.

Also when you have this sorted, copy this model memory into another empty one or two, this will back-up all your settings plus if your not using the head loaders, all you need to do is change the back-up memory for this heli to have -1 pitch over the pitch curve for testing ( won't left off then but loads the engine as we talked about)

[Ranger]

Thanks G-MRM,
I'll get to it! Been trying to sort it out all night. Sorry, It's 1.00am. I'll sort it in the mornig
Ranger.

[Ranger]

Hi G-MRM,
I have followed all Instructions as above, every thing moves in the right direction. But it seems to have more travel on right rudder than left. Also when I let go of the rudder stick, the pitch returns just a little, from either direction in HH.
It holds it's 15deg at center stick
Glen

[The Broker]

Ranger
Your 1st point
To turn right you need more rudder movement than to turn it left, the torque of the engine will always turn the nose left so you are ok on your 1st point
2nd point
It is ok to return a little but not the same as in STD.
Another test is in HH mode just apply a little L or R rudder, the servo should slowely move over to its full travel unlike in STD mode where the servo moves proportionaly to the stick movement.

[Ranger]

Hi Broker
I'll have a look and get back to you
Glen

[Ranger]

Hi Broker,
Yes, Thats what I've got, I just expected that it would stay where I left it, without the little bit of return.
Glen

[Ranger]

Hi Guy's,
I know you've all been waiting for an up date! So here it is.
This afternoon, I fired it up for the first time 8) First thing I noticed was how easily it fired up. Tracking looks good, but I noticed two things, 1- slight vibration until revs pick up, 2- Rudder servo moving back and forward fairly fast until revs pick up.(idle just under contacting clutch) Oh, and flat spot at mid stick, but it's not tuned properly yet.
Here are some pics.

[eddiemoth]

Yeeha! It'll take charge spying the Australia's sky very soon! :D

[swatson144]

Man there's somethin' wrong with my computer. Every pic I've seen the skids are touching something.

Steve

[Ranger]

Pics posted in TT forum :D

[G-MRM]

slight vibration until revs pick up, 2- Rudder servo moving back and forward fairly fast until revs pick up

Ranger, I think these could well be linked, gyros don't like vibrations.

Are you using the wood blades that came with the kit? Do they need to be balanced?

Are the blades too tight in the holders or too loose, this is the one I would go for. Next time, try a little tighter, pull blades out so they are in line and try, if not back off the blades screws a little and try again.

Just tested mine, holding the heli with blade sideways they do not swing down but if you shake it the blade will move down a little, about 45 deg

[Ranger]

I'm, using CF blades that have been balanced, but will check them again while waiting for new parts. I will also look closer at the blade tension. Thanks.
Glen

[eddiemoth]

Ranger or anybody, I never own a gas/nitro heli but I am wondering how do you calculate the heli headspeed for a gas heli. For electric we use the formulae like this one. http://www.helitown.com/Downloadpagepipoinheadspeed.html

[Ranger]

Sorry Eddie, not sure, I just went on what I learned In the threads here, but I was actually going to research this topic tonight for use in my "newbie" thread.
I'll let you know what I find out, unless anyone else already knows.
Cheers, Glen

[Ranger]

Eddie,
Have a look at this one!! once I figure it out I might use it too.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/community/heliwizard.cfm

[G-MRM]

Nitros are built with std engins in mind, they all run about 17,000 rpm but power output changes more than speed.
Not the case for an electric motor where the KV value changes a lot.

However you are best to make sure your not over speeding the blades by having a low pitch setting at high throttle settings.

I use two types, one counts the blades as they interrupt the light passing into the unit. Just set it to the correct number of blades 2, 3 or 4 hold or fix under the blades and the display reads RPM. These are Ok for smaller electric helis that you can hold down while you take the blades to max power ! WITH GREAT CARE !!

The other one I use for nitro in the optical reader. On this one you look at the blades through the unit, inside is a small slot in a disk that spins. As you look through the disk you have a up and down speed control that changes the speed of the viewing disk, when this disk is spinning at the same speed at your rotors you will see them stationary, the unit has a digital display that shows the disk speed, thus your rotor speed!

These are the best for all big helis but you need a friend to use it while you fly!

[Ranger]

Hi G-MRM
I have a new problem!
The new tail pitch slider is a little different, It's measurements are a little longer than the original by 1mm, changing the tail pitch slightly, if I leave it as we had set it up previously :?:

Also, do you know why, when I let go the rudder stick, do the rotor blades have a small amount of return?
Glen

[G-MRM]

Glen, not sure on why is is longer but try as is first. Then you were testing on your first tank of fuel what was the heli doing? Did you trim so with hands off the sticks in normal rate mode on the gyro the heli would stay put on the spot for a few seconds before drifting off? This is what you must get to. Ok to do small trim on the front of the TX, but if you have lots of any trim you should look to move the servo arm in or out on whatever control to get the trim Ok on the Tx.

Same with the tail, as said in std rate mode the heli should not spin left ot right with rudder stick in the middle. if that is not the case you have to trim the tail push rod. When Ok you turn it to HH mode and flick the rate switch on the tx 3 times to set it up as per the Futaba info sheet.

The rudder will come back a little in HH mode when you center the sticks BUT not as it will in STD mode, in std mode it will always come back to the setting you made by adjustimg the tail push rod.

Is that any help ? maybe I can get a video to you or you can post one of your tail moving in HH mode??

[Ranger]

Hi G-MRM
I didn't get to adjust much at all the first time, as it was a little too windy, and then I Broke it! But it was fairly stable at first, But tended to drift to the left.
I will re-test hopefully tomorrow(Thursday) or Friday due to other commitments. Stay tuned :D
Glen

[Ranger]

Will try to get video for you of next test.

[swatson144]

As much as I like vids, sometimes there has to be a private moment. Doing the hovering maidens is one of those times. Have fun with it hover adjust rinse repeat. To me the setup moments are always pretty intense, and hopefully uneventful. That's bable speak for, Set it up with no pressures.

Steve