T-rex 450xl CDE Question - Assembly

[kyuuki]

Hey helitown.

Went to the hobby shop yesterday and left with -

T-rex 450xl CDE ccpm
Align 430l brushless motor
Align brushless programmable 25a ESC
4 x Hitech - HS-56HB servo's
Futuba T6EXHP Transmitter 40 MHZ mode 2
Futuba R14 6IP Reciever
FUTUBA GY 401 GYRO

Align balance charger
11.1v 1700mAH 20c Batt

325 Pro blades,


Think i listed it all, anyway i feel more confident with the better electronics, the guy even did all the soldering for me and changed the transmitter to mode 2, decent guy.


SO - Question 1 - today is build day. I have just started to assemble the main rotor assembly, my first question is - when screwing on the ball links do they have to be firm and not move or be free to turn? or does it matter?

Question 2 - in relation to the pic the flybar supports dont seem to fint snugly onto the main rotor shaft... there is a small gap both sides that allows the flybar equipment to slide a mm side to side... is that correct or should it fit snug... if snug how do i do this as everything is tightend the farthest it can and there is still a small gap....

http://www.itsthatguy.co.uk/q1.jpg

Thanks in advance. It's really apreciated!

[G-MRM]

kyuuki, Welcome, glad you have joined this new forum :D

You will find the 450XL a nice model to fly, I have both the normal and SE kit but still waiting to build the SE !!

Is your 450 the CDE or CCPM, it can't be both? CDE uses a servo to change the pitch, CCPM uses a mix of the three servos.

Q1, the balls must be tight, I use a spot of CA glue in the hole before turning the screw in, as with all parts into plastic, tight but don't over do it and strip the thread it makes in the plastic. :shock:

Q2, a small gap is correct, it needs to move! 1mm is too much, undo the grub screw and just push the two side arms in a little, remember the flybar must be central. I hope you did not use any green loctite on the fixings for the arms or any other part, :( I did along with others who now can't remove the arms, only ever use the blue loctite that 'will' allow you to remove the fixing at a later date!!

My 450 CDE can be seen on www.heli-world.co.uk under T-REX if it helps.

Martin

[kyuuki]

its around .7mm gap, will this even out when the rotor rotates?

and i used the green as the instructions said.... dang.i can undo the screws but not pull the bar off.... BUT they are in as far as they go... they wont go on anny further so im guessing the .7mm gap shud be ok if it is made that way.

Its CDE v2 says on the box, i had the choice of ccpm and cde in the shop, i thought they were the same thing so i went with the one that said v2. was that a mistake?

[kyuuki]

i love your trex by the way, nice canopy / colour scheme

[G-MRM]

Hi, .7 total gap should be Ok, I just flexed the two arms in a little and did the grub screws up.

I think they have changed the names of the kits, sound like you have the CCPM version where the 3 servos control the pitch. A year ago you had the choice of two, CDE or CCPM (in the Uk !! ) Your kit is the new V2 so bang up to date !!

[kyuuki]

Cool, good to know, Bought it in a shop in hong kong, but from bristol myself, back to the uk in 5 weeks... looking forward to ALOT of open space.

Thanks for the info, i have finished the rotary assemble and am working on the frame at the moment putting all the moving parts in. i will post if anything else comes up.

I need to get some white gear for this bird, yellow isnt my thing.

[swatson144]

Actually the HDE is the mechanical mix, and the CDE is CCPM.

Steve

[G-MRM]

Small world !!

You can get all the parts on white or in carbon !! I do like light clolours for main and tail blades.

Yes, post if you need more help !!

Stay off the green loctite !!!! Once it sets, we are talking metal to metal, it will need heat to remove, Ok on a car engine but not with plastic parts about ! :(

Tip, if the motor shaft dont have a flat for the gear grub screw file one on!

Martin

[G-MRM]

swatson, well spotted, I confused HDE and CDE !

As said Kyuuki, you have the the ccpm 3 servo mix heli, what Tx will you be using so we can be ready to help with the swash settings !! 8)

Martin

[kyuuki]

I thought CDE was CCpm..

Right 2 more minor probs,

Prob 1 - my servo's have 2 holes but my frame only has one... whats the best way to make 2 more holes? heating up a paperclip and pushing it through?

http://www.itsthatguy.co.uk/q3.jpg

Prob 2 - when turning the rotor the cogs make a small scraping sound, it seems like the big cog is rubbing on the tail cog..... should i file down the small cog or try and get the big cog higher?

http://www.itsthatguy.co.uk/q4.jpg

Im using FUTUBA T6EXHP - best i could afford at the time, I really apreciate the help, always good to have expert advice!

kyuuki,
Welcome to HeliTown - people drill a hole on the servo between the two holes to match the hole on your frame. When you say cog, do you mean drive gear? It yes - they might be to tight.

Oh, I just saw your pic. Yes, I think the sound could come from that or from your drive belt. It looks like the main gear touches the tail gear in the pict. Please check that area. How tight is your drive belt?

[G-MRM]

I will look at the wifes 450 ccpm that she is building, could be shaft ring too big or Align have glued the small gog on the tail drive shaft wrong....

They are HS servos? You can drill two new holes in the heli or I know some drill one hole in the servo. If HS I think the arm will hit the canopy, you may need to change the way they are fitted?

Tell me the servo number please.

Martin

[kyuuki]

the servo's are HITEC HS-56HB FEATHER

It might be easier to heat a paperclip and put 2 new holes in the canopy because to do a single hole in the servo i would have to cut off some of it and i want the servo's to be resellable for when i eventually upgrade.

Also the tail ruber track isnt tight or loose, its jsut right according to instructions, but the sound is definatly comming from the main gear touching the tail gear (the one thats not suposed to touch it.

[G-MRM]

More from me when I get home !!

[swatson144]

That cog is not in the right place. I'd check to see if the pillow blocks (bearing holders) for the counter shaft are in correct and not upside down. That'll move the drive pinion by the thickness of the bearing retaining plastic (the part of the molding that hold the bearings in on the inside).

Steve

[G-MRM]

The cog can't be wrong, the housing is moulded into the frames. In my photo you will see the gaps and I would say the 3 gaps are about the same, frame to top of the upper cog, upper cog to lower cog, frame to lower side of tail cog. All about 1 to 1.5mm max. If yours are the same the cog on the tail drive shaft may have moved when being made/glued on??

Servos, you will see the problems with the servos, photo shows the correct Align one. To get the arm to the same level you need to fix them on the other side of the fixing lugs on the Rex and space them away with spacers and long screws. The plastic is very thin and you will see a boss moulded into the mounting lugs on the Rex, thats why you should use this hole and drill a new hole in the center of the servo after cutting the plastic web away.

G-RMR,
Very nice pictures.

Everybody,
I just want to thank you for being here and welcome to Helitown and just want to let you know that there is a new annoucement here that you can help pass along http://helitown.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=84.

[kyuuki]

Mine is - top to first cog - 1 mm
first cog to second cog - 1mm
bottom frame to bottom of tail cog - 2mm - i think we found the culprit

Now to figure out how to move that down 1 mm.... hmm


About the servo's... i see what you mean now... Luckily i have just the screws and spacers for the job, so ill start cutting and fitting now. Are the servos ok? quality wise? will they give me alot of tail wag when connected to the gyro or should it be nice and stable..?

Mine is - top to first cog - 1 mm
first cog to second cog - 1mm
bottom frame to bottom of tail cog - 2mm - i think we found the culprit

Now to figure out how to move that down 1 mm.... hmm


About the servo's... i see what you mean now... Luckily i have just the screws and spacers for the job, so ill start cutting and fitting now. Are the servos ok? quality wise? will they give me alot of tail wag when connected to the gyro or should it be nice and stable..?

Hi kyuuki,
If it is the tail cog that was glued too high. I would say give the store you bought it from a call and see if they can give you a new tai cog assembly -in the US it only costs $8, unless you want to see if you can debond the glue and reglue it yourself. I think you can debond it but I would try to get a new one from the store as you bought the whole system from them. I am sure when the store guy sees the problem, he would give you a new one. That is why it is good to buy things from your LHS for the first kit. If you bought it from RC-Expert, it'll take them at least a week to send you the resplacement part from Hong kong if they agree to give you one. Before they give you the new one, they always want you to send them the old one.

Last time when I had a defect 4 in 1 for, I had to buy my new part while I sent them the old part and waited for them to send the new one. It took me about 2 weeks to get the replacement part from them.

For the servo, HS-56 is very popular servo for Trex owners based on what I read. How stable or wag is depend on how you set it up and adjust the gyro. Futaba 401 is a very good gyro if you have a spare channel on your TX, you can set to adjust the gain via your TX.

[kyuuki]

*Update: Half way through doing the servos

Had another look at the tail gear, and I dont think it was glued on wrong as it cant possibly be glued any lower. So there must be a problem of my positioning of the main gear, and I will take that area apart and re-do it - see if that makes a difference.

[kyuuki]

Iv been trying to fit the servos using spacers.. and it seems i dont need to use them... if i put the servos in from behind in stead of screwing them in front there is plenty of room for everything. whenever i use spacers there is constricted moovement.

the holes for the screws on the frame are pretty deep so im thinking align did this so you could fit the hitech servos without having to use spacers. when im dont i will post a pic so you can jsut to make sure everything is ok.

[finless]

FYI, this is not the first time I have seen this reported. Align now makes the high speed and low speed gear sets IN WHITE and some kits have gotten the wrong gears "sets". This will be the third time I have seen this as I bet he has the wrong matching gears.

Bob

[kyuuki]

So they might not have installed the correct tail cog? or given me the wrong main or small cog? thats annoying. Ill see if i can fix it but i cant go to the shop until sunday as im ill at the moment and walking around mong kok in tropical heat and 100% humidity is not a good idea.

Update* Right i have installed all the servos could you take a quick look just to make sure everything is ok. The red arrows indicate bits that i am going to cut off and file smooth so they dont rub against the canopy.

Next will be the cog fixing + esc programming which i have a vid for.

http://www.itsthatguy.co.uk/q5.jpg

http://www.itsthatguy.co.uk/q6.jpg

http://www.itsthatguy.co.uk/q7.jpg

I just need to put the screws back into the servos + I will clean up the wires when im done.

P.S Bob - Ill be entering your competition soon. + your Videos have been a great help,

Thankyou to everyone on this forum aswell, its the best forum for getting a responce..

kyuuki,
You are on the right track with the servo horn cutting. Don't let the tail cog bother you too much. Once you tell the guy at the store about it, he will understand. Most helicopter kits have problems here and there. I guess that is one of the fun things we all kind of like about helicopters - challenging. :)

Thanks for the nice word about the forum. Everyone here who gets the title Tech Support team is the best people in the world. I learned sooo much from them. So take your time and I am sure it will be ready to fly soon.

[kyuuki]

I managed to fix the tail cog..... i filed the top 1/10th of and nothing touches now... i know you would sugest getting another part but i will see how this goes and if i find any trouble (which i dont think i will) i will pay the shop a visit.

Im programming the heli today, starting with esc, if i have any problems ill be sure to post.

I have read the entire controller manual and understand msot things but will need some help fine tuning it for flight.

Glad you resolved the problem. Yes - anytime and I can't wait to hear your flight report. :)

[kyuuki]

Right. how hot is the esc suposed to get while plugged in as even after a few seconds mine is extremly burning hot.....

also when i plug it in ready to program with stick up (watched bobs vid) it all goes alittle crazy and some servos twich ever so slightly. is that suposed to happen? it didnt with my walkera everything was silent but with this you can hear the servos going bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

i reset the controler and made sure throttle curve is linear and all my end points are good and i am in mode 2. what am i doing wrong?


*If you need pictures i can take them.

[kyuuki]

cant seem to figure it out....

my controller is configured -

Mode 2

model 1

PCM - Same as it says on the reciever

dual rates - all 100%

Exponential - not touched

Endpoints - all 100%

Trim - Not touched but all 0

Throttle curve - 0 25 50 75 100

pitch curve - 0 25 50 75 100

Idle up throttle - ON - 0 25 50 75 100

Idle up pitch - not touched

Throttle Hold - not touched

REVP - pitch rudder mixing - not used as using the gy401 gyro with head hold

GYRO - On, up set to 80% down set to -60% (is up when turned on)

SWSH - 3-5 - not changed any other settings

Failsafe- not touched



* update - i managed to stop the servos going bzzzzz by taking of the links... i think some of them need reversing and as such were pushing and pulling against eachother and causing the servo noise. so thats sorted!!!

I need to reverse the throttle thos so i will do that now. just to clarify the throttle controls some of the servos aswell right? because mine seems to.

[kyuuki]

SUCCSESS!!!!!! I reversed the throttle and managed to program the speed control

1 - low stick

2 - Middle stick

3 - Middle stick

4 - Middle stick

5 - Middle stick - i want to try softstart for now.

right now i will move on to programming the ccpm.

[kyuuki]

Well that took a while but all the ccpm basic moovment programming is done.

Now to go onto 2nd half of video 1!

Could somone also help me by looking over my controller setups to make or give me advice on how to make it better, any sugestions welcomed.

[The Broker]

Is your ESC still getting hot, it should only be just warm when powering RX and SERVO's.
ESC settings
LOW
MID
MID
MID
MID or HIGH
The last setting is throttle response, setting this LOW would mean that if in trouble you would not be able to gain height quickly.
Start with MID would be my advice

[kyuuki]

Ok, just reprogramed the speed crontroler to that setting. it doesnt get hot anymore just warm which is good, im on the second ccpm vid trying to get everything perfect and eliminate unwanted swashplate inteference.

I dont have any control of the Tail servo... do you have any idea why this could be?

After i finish fine tuning all the the ccpm i will move onto the gyro setup. I never knew setting up a heli would take so long.. i dont mind as im ill at the moment with a cold so have to stay in anyway but im on my third day! this beast better fly better than the walkera 36.

[The Broker]

Hi There
Connect the servo directly to channel 4 of the RX, if you have control check gyro if not check settings on TX and check servo is working :)

[kyuuki]

Right it turns out i had the tail servo pluged the wrong way around into the gyro... switched it and all works well. and i have almost got the ccpm to as perfect it is possible to make it. i will keep at it as i wont be testing the flying until tommorrow as here in hong kong it is dark already (so the mossys are out in their njumbers and ill get eaten alive) plus i need some new ping pong balls.

[kyuuki]

is the tail servo suposed to always make a noise when on (not moving it).. a very slight buzz?

If not what could be the causes of this.

*note i havent set up the gyro yet so that may be a cause

Another question, How do you change head speed and what speed is best for hovering / general flying?

Kyuuki,
If it is making sound when is not moving. It has some binding some where. So check to see and make sure there is no presure on the servo horn when it is in its position. You may need to adjust the ball link or any connection from the tail assembly to the servo horn.

For the headspeed, it is depending on the pinion you use? What is # of T on your pipion. If you don't have a tach, download this calculator.
http://www.helitown.com/Downloadpagepipoinheadspeed.html

[kyuuki]

I fixed the servo, and programed the gyro and set up the tail correctly. I just finished installing all the wire onto the frame and am nearly finished!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where is the best place to put the reciever wire without putting in that nasty looking rod.

--------
For the headspeed, it is depending on the pinion you use? What is # of T on your pipion. If you don't have a tach, download this calculator.
--------

I dont know anything about headspeed, what is the pinion? number of t? tach?


When im 100% done which im thinking will be soon i will post a pic of the finished thing so you can give it a quick look over. Thx helitown!

Cann't wait to see the pictures.

The pipoin is the small cog (I guess) on your motor. It drives your main cog. the # T is really the number of the teetch of your pipion. The tach is tachometer that you can use to measure a headspeed.

Headspeed is normally calculated with the formular below:

Estimate Head Speed = (Motor kv * Battery Voltage /(Main Gear /Teeth of Pinion)) * Efficiency Rate

I copied everything about head speed from HeliTown's website here (http://www.helitown.com/HeadSpeed.html) so others can see it here too. All the experts, if you see anything wrong, please correct me. Don't let me confuse our members.

In order to calculate your RC helicopter head speed, there are 4 things you need to know:

The number of Teeth (T) of your motor pinion. If you set up your RC helicopter yourself, you should know that by heart. If you bought the RC Helicopter RTF (ready to fly) or someone set it up for you, just count the teeth of your motor pinion. It is a lot easier than counting the teeth of your main gear.

The number of T of the main gear. This is easy to find – just count the teeth on your main gear. Well, not that easy – just try it, you’ll know what I mean. I get a different number every time I count it. Again, you may find the number of your main gear T on the owner manual.
Motor kv - the rpm (head Speed) produced by a motor per volt applied. You should be able to get the motor kv from the motor specification sheet.

Voltage: This is the voltage of your battery. You may get this information from your battery specification sheet or label.
Efficiency rate: This is the percentage of your RC helicopter motor

efficiency when you are flying with your set up. It is the norm to use 80% ( .8 ) or 90% (.9) depending many factors though you run 100% on your throttle curve.

As it was said earlier, the result would only give you a rough estimate of the head speed. A better way is to use a tachometer to measure your RC Helicopter head speed.

Estimate Head Speed = (Motor kv * Battery Voltage /(Main Gear /Teeth of Pinion)) * Efficiency Rate

For example, I set up my MX400 with JGF 400HD (KV: 4000-4400) with a 9 T pinion. I am going to use 3 cells Li Po battery that produces 11.1 voltage. T of MX400 Helicopter main gear is 138. Now I want to know what is my MX400 helicopter head speed is.

**Remember from your math class, start from the most inner bracket out when calculating the head speed

(4000*11.1/(138/ 9 ))*.8 = 2317. My MX400 Head Speed would be around 2,317

If I use 8 T pinion on my MX400 for the same set up,

(4000*11.1(138/ 8 ))*.8 = 2059. My MX400 Head Speed would be around 2,059

I broke down the formula here one step at a time for you to understand it.

Main Gear/Teeth of Pinion = Gear to T Pinion Ratio, then

Motor kv * Battery Voltage = Maximum Head Speed (rpm), then

Maximum Head Speed/ Gear to T Pinion Ratio = Head Speed Without Efficiency Loss, then

Head speed Without Efficiency Loss * Efficiency (either .9 or 8 ) = Targeted Head Speed
--------------------

To much hussle? Just dowload the calculator here and plug in the numbers
http://www.helitown.com/Downloadpagepipoinheadspeed.html

[kyuuki]

Hey guys!

I FINALLY FINISHED!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just took her out for her first test flight (it was called of yesterday because of bad weather) and i am amazed at how good it is! I even had my first hover outside a simulator!!! *hence the training gear.

I think i have fallen in love with the gy401 heading hold gyro... Compared to the walkera 36 i was flying before (well flying in the sence of lifting it of the ground then crashing it as it spun around)

Here are some pics of her first flight! (Sprayed the canopy black - but as soon as im well enough to go into town i will buy white parts)

http://www.itsthatguy.co.uk/t-rex1.jpg

http://www.itsthatguy.co.uk/t-rex2.jpg

http://www.itsthatguy.co.uk/t-rex3.jpg

It flew amazingly for its first flight after i played with the trims alittle. And it is alittle windy today aswell but it still kept steady.

Im running a head speed of 2732, i could change the motor cog and make it 2312, But is there any point seeing as it flew well?

Also i want to say a big thankyou to all the people on this forum who have helped me through the difficult stages of building this bird, it is really apreciated!

Chris[/code]

[thanhTran]

Looks great Chris. I would be happy with what it is. Not to say something bad but you will always have chance to change things :). Hope you don't have to do that soon. Which pinion are you running now?

[kyuuki]

13, i have an 11 spare

Chris - Awesome! Not bad - it only took you a few days to get it fly. I always like yellow color. Again it is awesome :) :) :) :)

[remyrw]

Looks great, and I hope my build turns out as well when the time comes.
Congrats on a successful maiden flight.

[G-MRM]

Well done !! looks good.

I would keep the 13 tooth on the motor if I was you it gives good head speed vs power/time from the battery. :lol:

My 450 XL lost the tail belt drive pulley.... I was just 3 feet up, lucky. I have bought the upgrade one now with the metal pulley and blue drive gear. Just need time to split the frame and fit ! :cry:

[lenny]

Hi all.
Pretty much finished 450XL today (ESC, and swash !!!) :shock:
Weather in south UK not promising for flight tomorrow however.
I had similar rubbing with main drive gear on tail rotor drive with my kit also.There was a significant amount of moulding sprue on tail rotor gear which I removed and I also locked main gear on main shaft first then sqeezed between top and bottom main shaft bearings before tightening collar (this made sure larger gear on main drive is as far up as it can go).This cured problem :D

Be very aware of green loctite!!.It is a bearing retainer(loctite 270 is used on gas turbines and the like!!).I use it frequently and we treat it as an adhesive!.To my knowledge it is not compatible with a lot of plastic materials and needs LARGE amounts of heat to break down bond.Do not be tempted to use cyano as a threadlocker(fail to see what fuss is about with "superglue" anyhow).Quick!! ok, have a beer and read a mag while your long term glue dries.(Cyano,after all,was invented as a field dressing in the Korean war!!!) :evil:

[eddiemoth]

Hi lenny,
Thanks for sharing the tricks. Talking about the red vs. the green loctite is a very good topic as people tend to ignore its function (I have to admit it for myself). I am quick to use CA for everything and then I regret later. So unless you want to throw both parts away when one is broken, the green loctite should not be used. Also, someone told me once and I remember forever that you only use loctite when both parts are metal - never use it when it I s one metal and one is plastic. Good tips lenny