SIM Survey

[eddiemoth]

We know that everyone who is in RC hobby must have a SIM either a free SIM such as FMS or a comercialized SIM one such as Relex or G3. To help folks here, let's discuss what you have and why. If you use more than one SIM, please give pros and cons for each one of them.

There is a poll up on top of this thread, take a minute to select your prefered SIM.

SIM Webistes:

FMS
http://n.ethz.ch/~mmoeller/fms/index_e.html
Real Flight G3
http://www.realflight.com/
Pre-Flight
http://www.preflightsim.com/
FS One
http://www.fsone.com/
ClearView
http://www.rcflightsim.com/cvweb1/main.jsp?page=home1.html

My SIM experience:
I first use FMS. The reason was because it is free. Then I felt I need a more realistic SIM and again I got Clear View because it is cheap. It is way better than FMS. The graphic is also a lot better but the problem is the heli gets to small when flying and it is hard to see. It does not have environmental crash. That mean, your heli never crashes though you fly it into a tree which should be fun in the real lift :) I am still with Clear View now. I tried both G3 and Relex. They are both good and I like them very much.

[Ranger]

Hi All,
I use G-3, you can fly any thing from beginner to 3D.
you can build your own Air fields.
you can manipulate every thing. Helies, wind, grass, buildings, etc.
you can create new heli bodies with the right photo program.
you can down load helies and color schemes, Air fields, from private people on G-3 web site, and it now has "photo fields"
There are things like, chase mode where the camera follows the heli
periodic engine failure if you so desire. you can even change the inner workings of the helies to match your own!(if your a wizz)
And too many things to list here.
But beware!!!! you need a really good graphics card to make it work at it's best..
Regards to all, Glen

[The Broker]

I use Aerofly Pro at the moment but would like to try Phoenix, I have heard a lot of good things about Phoenix
What I think of sims......well, 1...I don't believe you need a sim and I know I am going to be shot down for that comment and 2...I believe they have a limited use, they are sort of OK to try new skills but for me I can never get past the fact that it doesn't matter if you crash.
Let me explain what I mean
Say I want to practise nose in and I get on my sim and after a while I get ok at doing it, now I will have crashed the sim but I just press F8 and it is ok again. My brain knows 2 things, 1... I will crash and 2... F8 gets me back to try again, now I go to the field to try out my new skill but oh dear this is the real thing and no F8 so at once my heart is racing and I am probably in a near panic state because I know if I crash while trying my nose in I will have to pay for spares, rebuild the heli and have the knowledge that I failed to do the nose in, god forbid I that I would have been flying a scale copter.
So my mental atitude at the field is totally different from sitting in a chair flying a sim. It s these nerves that need to be conquered to be able to fly well and no sim can do that for you.

Sims are good fun but the real work is out there on the field, garden or where ever you fly.
Sue

[Ranger]

point taken,
don't assume you can fly the real thing just because you can do it on the sim

[swatson144]

I'm right there with Eddie. Started with FMS, and went to clearview and found Clearview much better. FMS was pretty good after going into the settings and turning some wind on.

I can't really use a Sim. I've tried for several hours. The ground keeps showing up unexpectedly, the heli suddenly disappears (goes from easy to see to a dot in an instant without ever getting harder to orient). Every thing is either very easy to do or impossibly difficult for me. I bought clearview to be able to fly in the gym which would keep the ground in view it helps but not quite the same.

So the obvious answer is to get a better sim. Fortunatly I could rule that out by running G3 at the LHS. Same problems. So I got to keep my money and just use it for spares. 200$ will fix a corona for about a thousand crashes or 4-5 with the x400.

Best SIM? I didn't vote but it seems as if I'm not alone in the world of SIM challenged others have remarked the same in other forums. I just thought I'd mention it because starting cheap and seeing if you like sims is probably a good way to go. Esky makes a decent 30$ USB TX to get started. BPhobbies.com carries them.

Steve

[Ranger]

Hi Steve
In G-3 you have the option of staying with your heli "chase cam", fixed posi, or window in window (orientation) and you can fly a jet so fast towards the ground, that the wings fall off!

[The Broker]

See Ranger this is just my point
you can fly a jet so fast towards the ground, that the wings fall off!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[swatson144]

Thanks Ranger. I have tried the different cams. Clearview even has several. All of them seem to have strong points and weeknesses. It's all a matter of the way my brain works, or in this case refuses to work. I just can't seem to get the whole spacial, time thing in a 2d format. It just seems more like I'm learning to fly a SIM than using a sim to better my piloting skills.

An additional point is after I get a few crashes in I have learned to do fast backwards circuits and then it just goes round and round and never a problem like the tail blowing out etc. It seems too much like the old nintendo games where you just learn to go fast stop for 3 beats, move 3, stop for 6 move 4. etc. In real life I get doing FB circuits and go faster and faster then suddenly POOF the tail blows out and I'm in FFF and I forget how to fly. When things go smoothly I have very little problem in any orientation but sudden unexpected changes turns my heli into a roto tiller. I haven't seen that unexpected random action.

It might very well be that I'm still doing very basic stuff and the thing will be a great boon for learning the stick movements for advanced 3d manuevers, where the stick movements are much more complex.

Steve

[Ranger]

No worries, to each their own!
Ranger.

[eddiemoth]

I heard someone said that with G3 you can interface with someone on the Internet and see his stick movements when the person is flying. This would be good for people to learn from each other remotely.

[swatson144]

Goodness Eddie where have you been clearview does the remote play and shows sticks on screen now http://rcflightsim.com/. I'm thinking you might want to use one of your free lifetime upgrades. :lol:

Steve

[G-MRM]

Maybe sims are not for evryone but I think they can help, save you money and time as well as stopping you become too despondant when things go wrong.:shock:

You can play with one as a game if you wish or you can take it seriously and try say to hover nose in for longer each time, as I am trying to.

Sims are part of training in many jobs, you could not become a real commercial pilot with out using one :roll:

I would say to any new heli person, try one at you LHS first but don't treat it as a game ! :D

[eddiemoth]

Goodness Eddie where have you been clearview does the remote play and shows sticks on screen now http://rcflightsim.com/. I'm thinking you might want to use one of your free lifetime upgrades. :lol:

Steve

I'll definitely check into it. It is awesome to have free lifetime upgrades :)

[Ranger]

As I write this post I have been down loading the newest version of G-3 for the last 15 hours, that can only tell me one thing, they are sending me a whole new sim . Last time, Real Flight sent me a new one in the mail! FREE. I don't know how long they will continue to keep sending them. Great company!
Ranger

[NeilM]

I am very new to heli's and am finding sims to be very useful for orientation and also to understand what a heli does when in flight.

It allows me to make expensive mistakes very cheaply. Like not realising you could trim a heli for neutral flight, DOH! Much better to crash that nice new Trex 5 times on the sim eh???

I tried Phoenix at my LHS, something else. Trouble is, the only PC I have is the company laptop, so I'm pretty limited. I run a Mac as my main computer and have downloaded the only available sim for it, but found it pretty unsatisfactory so far. Guess a bit more time assessing, before I decide whether to pay my €30 to register (or not).

I think the point is well made, not to PLAY with the sim, but to train with it. Mind, it is nice to relax by tearing around the sky in a B52 every now and again :D

Next step, get a model flying. Then I will be able to compare sim with reality.

Neil

[eddiemoth]

It allows me to make expensive mistakes very cheaply. Like not realising you could trim a heli for neutral flight, DOH! Much better to crash that nice new Trex 5 times on the sim eh???
Neil

Hi Neil, you hit the nail right on the head here. Me too - I use SIM to explore and try my new skills, knowing that if I do it on my heli it will cost me $$$$$$ and time to fix. For SIM, it is just a matter of hitting the enter key. :) and I believe spending time on both SIM and stick is necessary at least for myself. When I am grounded because of the bad weather, SIM can help. :)

[daniel reese]

As if Im one to talk here, bein the bunny hoppin nube that I am...but i just gotta vent my piece on this sim thing....

I think this argument, cause thats what it so often devoles to, gets confused between the INTENT of the prospective USER of the sim.

There are two flight students who are interested / invested in this topic- those just learning BASIC flight and those who can fly already and are learning 3D or ADVANCED flight. For one the sim is of little value, for the other it is of critical value. I would like to separate the two.

...For learning BASIC flight....

Ive played with FMS, Clearview, G3 and another that excapes me at the moment (before actually flying my Trex) and, honestly...it was too easy.

I learned (well, AM learning) to fly my Trex by FLYING my Trex. The absolute HARDEST part of learning to fly this thing has been takeoff, landing and hover (well, thats about all I can do well at the moment anyway).

In real life, the rex wants to rotate left, slide left and then wobble like a drunken sailor on ice for the first two inches off the ground. Then it stables out a bit but it's sill balancing on a column of air and when you push forward or to the side it falls off that column and drops a bit, speeds up a bit and drifts a bit. Any transition from one position/direction to another results in more or less significant changes in rpm, lift & speed- things every heli pilot needs to learn to anticipate and react to (or rather pre-act to...)

None....Not One... of the sims I've played on replicate this with ANY degree of accuracy. Flying a SIM heli is nearly as stable as flying the counter-rotating microhelis. The uber-complex physics of helicopter flight are, evidently, just too complex to program into a $300 simulation that is cluttered up with jets, gliders and stunning background graphics...I dont care how well G3s mountains look if my heli doesnt drift like the real one.

Some have argued for the use of a cheap (ccpm) heli as a trainer...well, those suck too- especially the CP or CP pro- while they replicate the ccpm functions they are so light and so overpowered for their weight, that flying them is HARDER than flying my rex! (tried it). The alternative of using the counter-rotating helis has the same problems as the sim- they're too stable so there's little training value in it. With one its too difficult, with the other its too easy.

Its the use of a sim for BASIC flight that I dont think is appropriate.
Rather, the prospective student MUST EXCERCISE CAUTION, RESERVE, CALMNESS and PATIENCE. One must not be in a hurry to put air under the skids or a crash will be the painfull result. The prospective new student should be strongly encouraged to learn to fly indoors, free from weather effects, in open, yet limited spaces like a small gymnasium; at less than 3' off the ground; to learn to spin up their heli without sliding around in a prioette; to learn to hover at 2", 6", 1' & so on.

There's just no substitute for LEARNING to fly BSICS, than the real thing.
If someone can find a sim that rplicates propwash and ground effect and low rpm / high pitch physics for less than half the cost of my helicpter, Im perfectly willing to explore it.

Cost is the other part of this- a good sim (though it still falls way short in the flight physics category) costs half as much as my Trex did. No matter how bad I crash from 3' (because im exercising caution and restraint by staying that low) WHILE LEARNING BASIC FLIGHT, the repairs will be less than $300.
I can rebuild my Trex a couple of times over before ive made up the cost of a "good" sim.

Having said that, there IS a use and true benefit of sims!

...For learning ADVANCED flight and 3D... a SIM IS CRITICAL!!!!!

There is no way that one should attept rolls, hurricanes, inverts & etc on your real heli- you WILL crash it and you could seriously hurt or even kill someone in the process. SO, for learning ADVANCED FLIGHT, a sim is VERY Valuable- even necessary!

Too often is is THIS group of students, the advanced flight students, who are the most vocal SIM advocates. The most common attributes listed by these advocates is that they were able to learn flips, rolls, hurricanes & etc, crashing without consequence, before they ever put power to their heli. That after countless hours of chasing bumblebees on computer, they were able to do a roll on their real heli....but thats as much an illustration of the conflict as anything! Even after countless hours on the sim, doing it in real life was ALOT different. The physics of flying a real heli are more complex than can be reduced to a flight sim that fits on the average desktop computer. While a sim will help you get an IDEA of how to perform a maneuver; it will help you learn the sequence of stick movements to accomplish that maneuver; doing it for real requires a whole new discovery of the fine points, the finesse of the real controls.

Imagine then the problem that the nube has when after countless hours of learning to fly on a sim (with no experience on the real thing) they go out on their real heli and suddenly its sliding all over, drooping, sagging and reacting in unexpected ways to differences in air density and so on...they've never learned how to react to or deal with those intricacies...skills they WOULD have, had they been flying their real heli from the start.

Its all about "muscle memory" or as the Army puts it "training as you fight". If the nube practices for hours doing a maneuver- they will learn to do it that way and under stress, they will respond in the way they've been trained. However, flying the real thing is DIFFERENT than how they trained- the responces they've programmed into their brains by using a sim, responces programmed into their insticts, will be more or less inaccurate requiring them to learn all over again.

Isnt it better to stress the importance of restraint, reserve, caution and patience for the newbie- letting them learn true flight physics and handling on the real aircraft they will fly in the real conditions they will fly it in, with the least load on their monetary reserves?
Wouldnt it be better to advise the new pilot to put on training gear and practice in an open gym or other large, safe, indoor space where they cant accidentally fly off into the next zipcode?

Isnt it better to spend the occasional $40 to fix a pair of blades and a skid from a 3' crash than to have them spend $700 on a helicopter and then an additional $300-$500 on a sim that will not train them accurately?

In my limited experience as a nube, Ive crashed twice in about 40 hours of flight. (had absolutely no flight or even rc experience before powering up the Trex.

The first crash was from an RF glitch in my PPM system, the repairs of which ammounted to new blades, mainshaft, boom, tail drive belt, tail flats and skid legs. Total cost was about $40.

(as a consequence of identifying a weakness in the PPM system, I purchased a new PCM rx for $100, but I would consider that a seperate issue)

The second crash resulted in a collision with a wall as a result of correction/overcorrection to propwash in a low rpm / high pitch condition. The repairs ammounted to new blades, mainshaft, flybar and servo gears. Total cost was about $40.

Both of these crashes were brought on by conditions not replicated in a sim and were, BY FAR, less expensive than even a mediocre sim.

I had a near-crash incident where the linear throttle/pitch curves as reccomended by the factory, coupled with a change in aircraft weight and weather conditions on my first outdoor flight resulted in a nearly uncontrolled and extremely rapid climb to about 300'. It was only because I was somewhat accustomed to how my heli really flew that I was able to bring it back down safely. Part luck, to be sure; but mostly ACCURATE experience, allowed me to save my heli. Ive since confined myself to flying indoors until I am much more skilled and have better programmed throttle pitch curves- yet another CRUCIAL aspect that is not addressed by sims....

Imagine what would have happened had I been "experienced" in sims when something like that happened outside! I would have reacted as I had trained on the sim but those reactions are based on an aircraft with stable flight charactaristics based on an accurate initial setup. My aircraft- despite following factory reccomendations- did not behave at all like sim aircraft and sim-based inputs on the control surfaces would have had DRASTICALLY different results on the real aircraft.

That, and other lessons learned on the REAL helicopter, have educated me on the better setup parameters and given me a better understanding of real flight physics so I can understand WHY it does what it does and better understand what i need to do to deal with those conditions.

I will probably buy a sim some day- first because I will be able to fly it whenever, regardless of weather conditions and secondly to help me get better at more advanced flight maneuvers. But the experience ive had learning basic flight on the real thing has been INVALUABLE and UNREPLICATEABLE by any sim.

To overgeneralize:
New pilots-in-training need to practice RESTRAINT, CAUTION, and PATIENCE...on their REAL helicopter.

More experienced pilots who have learned the very basics will take many training benefits and be MUCH SAFER, by practicing ADVANCED flight on a sim first.

Just my opinion...

[G-MRM]

I did it the crash the real thing way then bought a sim later. I have now changed to Pheonix, it is good, the 450 is hard to fly !!

I put the hours in on the sim before my A test and it helped but as you say you could not fly a 100% A test on the sim and do the same on a real heli and pass !

For me it helps keep the fingers flying while you can't get to the field but I also think the small in-door twin rotors help that way too !!

For me the sim another tool to use but the wife 'The Broker' just can't get on with them ! Each to their own as they say !!

Martin

[Sleepstalker]

I have only used FMS so I have no practical experience with a REAL Sim I am leaning toward G3.5 but have choked on putting up the money....8-)

[The Broker]

My view on sims for what its worth........
Great fun to get online with your buddies and fly when you cant get to the field, ........Useful for learning 3D but most of the 3D pilots are very talented and even with the use of a sim go through many heli's in the learning process.....if you want to be good at 3D it is a requirement to be able to spend lots of cash in learning cos you are going to crash many many times, and it won't just be a boom strike either LOL

[G-MRM]

I will say I used my sim a lot in the 4 weeks it took me to go from never flying fixed wing to my A test ! I can't say the same for helis as we were already hovering before we bought one but I have started a little 3D on the sim as well as my dirty fig of 8's before I go to the heli without a reset button!

I do like the 'on line' part of the sim I use, it's so much more like being down the club !

Martin

[The Broker]

I have started a little 3D on the sim

*Looks at Martin in shock and horror*

[G-MRM]

But is it heli or fixed wing 3D ????

lol lol lol

[mtpenguin]

What about HeliSimRC? I tried it last night and prefer it to FMS.

B-)